Admin Complaint (Trojan_Coyote)

[kfive]

To begin with, I'm not complaining about the gamemode being forced. I'm complaining about the removal of player agency for no purpose. If everyone voted secret and it was forced extended, I'd be whining just as much.

As of late, at least one round daily gets bussed (from what I've seen) to secret, disregarding the roundtype vote. Now, this alone doesn't matter. Except that Trojan seems to forget that this server is Citadel when he does it. Following round 12293, I had a discussion with one of the cultists regarding the round, and the conclusion was clear:

Highpop secret when nobody votes for it is worse than lowpop secret. Why? A combination of the way the Citadel playerbase is and the Citadel rulebook. Firstly, everyone that wants to play secret wants to either validhunt or be an antag. This is usually a server minority. Secondly, you're not allowed to intentionally get yourself converted - you must do what you can to prevent a conversion. For those people that want extended, their choice of action is simple. Either they're converted and just go back to doing their shit with no worry about the team they're neglecting, or they don't get converted and immediately out whatever antag it was. For those people that want secret, at first they're oblivious but cautious - making them poor targets to begin with. Once the extend-bros shout, however, they show up at sec, get implanted, searched, and cleaned out, and mass an assault. So: lots of robust people working for station vs ill-equipped people that don't give a fuck and the few people that are trying to play the antag. Isn't hard to say who'd win that fight. Even easier to say that it's not fun.

Bussing Secret in does nothing but irritate the people that actually want secret because unless they're the security steamroller, they have no fun in team antag rounds because most of the people they convert are people who don't want to be team antags.

And since I've heard of multiple times when Trojan did it, I'm primarily complaining about them doing it in this as well.

Thank you for your time,
-k5

tl;dr team antags are terrible when most of your converts don't want to play as a team antag

[Trojan_Coyote]

I fail to see what you're trying to accomplish with this complaint. Is this complaining about me forcing secret for a round or two a day, or is this a complaint about people not wanting to play secret?

[Ruby Flamewing]

So, upon reading this, what I'm taking away from it is...

I need to come off break, take tomorrow's focus and strictly apply it to the server, and once population hits 40 or higher, force secret every round because that's what we're supposed to do, as stated by headmins and hosts.


By comparison, one or two rounds being done like that is really fucking light, when you think about it, mate.

[kevinz000]

before i even read this your meme polls are really dumb.

[kfive]

So, upon reading this, what I'm taking away from it is...

I need to come off break, take tomorrow's focus and strictly apply it to the server, and once population hits 40 or higher, force secret every round because that's what we're supposed to do, as stated by headmins and hosts.


By comparison, one or two rounds being done like that is really fucking light, when you think about it, mate.

At least then, within a month it'll be mostly people that want secret. Otherwise don't do it at all.

That is to say, commit, or don't. This is a half-measure that makes rounds worse overall. Edit: In fact, forcing secret only on 40+ every round is still just as much a half-measure.

before i even read this your meme polls are really dumb.

It's intentional.

[Trojan_Coyote]

So, are you complaining I'm not forcing secret MORE, or...? I'm still very confused as to the point of this complaint.

[kevinz000]

okay now that i have read this i think you're just ridiculous

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this, your replies, your attitude, etc etc. this is ridiculous and you are ridiculous.

[Girdo]

Righto. I normally ignore complaints I don't have a vested interest in, but even I have to agree that this complaint is kind've ridiculous.

Here's how things currently stand. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of these assertions:

Staff policy, approved both in general and by the hosts of the server, is to force secret when the server population is above a certain threshold (40+ was mentioned below.) There is a valid, objective reason for this: There are members of the server who will toe the line on extended rounds, and borderline self-antag out of boredom. It's more than a handful, and the chaos of extended rounds increases with population. Above this threshold, it is more convenient for both staff and players to force secret rounds. 
With headmin/host permission, if you're going to try to argue this point, I'd be happy to pull up data on the number of "griff/valid/etc." ahelps we get on secret rounds vs extended rounds. One is much, much higher because with a higher population comes more bored shitstains who'll toe the rulebreak line out of boredom.

And no, the argument "well, punish the line-toers then" is NOT a solution, because the vast majority of the playerbase gets upset whenever any staff member makes a ruling that isn't explicitly stated in the rules. Force secret when it's over 40 people, a standard that's been held for several years and enforced by staff? It gets complaints because it's not specifically in the rules, and is "removing player agency". Punishing clowns, assistants, and idiot botanists for causing chaos despite technically not griefing or self-antagging? You bet your ass a lot of people would flock to the forums to scream their heads off about it.

That's not even an assertion. That's all just a basic fact.


This is indeed a removal of player agency. The few are forcing a gamemode for the benefit of the many, because the alternative is a much more chaotic round with a lot more upset, salty people than if we just sent in nuke ops and called it a day.

I understand your concerns. But this was the best decision possible- the alternatives leave a lot more people upset than just "we got stuck with secret again muh RP might get wrecked".

[kfive]

So, are you complaining I'm not forcing secret MORE, or...? I'm still very confused as to the point of this complaint.

This server caters to players that play Extended. ERP is far more free and there are a bunch of people that will ERP as heads because they know that during extended rounds it's allowed. I would much rather have interesting admin events on Hipop Extended than have it be forced secret, because it would be engaging in a way that isn't "do or die". The vote is a measure to switch it to secret during those rare times when people want secret without having to bug admins. Don't throw the "but there's an RP server you can go to if you really want Extended". This isn't about that. See below for a proposal that would better suit Citadel if this is going to remain the admin stance. Citadel is not Bay or Aurora. Secret rounds are not extended with traitors that try to entice you into a private meeting or visitors that might turn violent if left uncontained - they are in most cases combat clusterfucks, a drastic change in pace from the slow march of time during Extended. 

okay now that i have read this i think you're just ridiculous

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this, your replies, your attitude, etc etc. this is ridiculous and you are ridiculous.

Kev, I made it no secret I think the same thing about your insistence to shove reworks down the server whose main selling point over the past two years has more or less been "regular tg but with vore and erp". Change is not always good. Ports were accepted because they brought Citadel inline with TG and people wanted that. Why was there an entirely new combat system pushed so hard without (from what I've seen on the server and forums - I don't watch the discord) a single highly-advertized public vote for whether or not we like it? Because it would be killed mercilessly, that's why.

EDIT: There could have been a player poll on the subject. Have it floating around for a week instead of just testmerging it until it felt right-ish and then merging fully. Why do I lose stamina by riding a borg with the wrong button pressed. Why don't I lose stamina if somebody pulling me along is sprinting, even if I'm not. This was shoehorned in from all directions.

Righto. I normally ignore complaints I don't have a vested interest in, but even I have to agree that this complaint is kind've ridiculous.

Here's how things currently stand. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of these assertions:

Staff policy, approved both in general and by the hosts of the server, is to force secret when the server population is above a certain threshold (40+ was mentioned below.) There is a valid, objective reason for this: There are members of the server who will toe the line on extended rounds, and borderline self-antag out of boredom. It's more than a handful, and the chaos of extended rounds increases with population. Above this threshold, it is more convenient for both staff and players to force secret rounds. 
With headmin/host permission, if you're going to try to argue this point, I'd be happy to pull up data on the number of "griff/valid/etc." ahelps we get on secret rounds vs extended rounds. One is much, much higher because with a higher population comes more bored shitstains who'll toe the rulebreak line out of boredom.

And no, the argument "well, punish the line-toers then" is NOT a solution, because the vast majority of the playerbase gets upset whenever any staff member makes a ruling that isn't explicitly stated in the rules. Force secret when it's over 40 people, a standard that's been held for several years and enforced by staff? It gets complaints because it's not specifically in the rules, and is "removing player agency". Punishing clowns, assistants, and idiot botanists for causing chaos despite technically not griefing or self-antagging? You bet your ass a lot of people would flock to the forums to scream their heads off about it.

That's not even an assertion. That's all just a basic fact.


This is indeed a removal of player agency. The few are forcing a gamemode for the benefit of the many, because the alternative is a much more chaotic round with a lot more upset, salty people than if we just sent in nuke ops and called it a day.

I understand your concerns. But this was the best decision possible- the alternatives leave a lot more people upset than just "we got stuck with secret again muh RP might get wrecked".

EDIT: The number 40 is arbitrary. There's no calculation based on Seldon's psychohistory that says 40 is the right number, and not 41 or 39. It was chosen because it's a round-looking number that 'seems about right'. That's the easiest way to reason such an arbitrary policy as being correct and hand-wave away all those finicky variables that come to light when you're dealing with people and not machines.

Our interests diverge, Girdo. My main goal in game administration is not to enforce law or peace or other abstract concepts that can be twisted all too easily. It's to maximize the amount of fun. Borderline self-antagging only becomes a problem when it starts to fuck with other people's enjoyment of the round. "Your liberties end where my rights begin" puts my stance on this in simple terms.

All in all, my test for whether something is not an IC issue has three conditions and the Antag Shield:

• Is it reasonable for a spaceman to do in this situation what the perp did ICly?
• Would most people behave the same way given their metaknowledge of the game's mechanics?
• Has everybody who participated enjoyed the situation once it was over?
• Is the perp an antag or otherwise protected from OOC consequences to IC actions.

If any of these are true, then it should be kept IC. For example, stealing the hand telly during a round of extended might not be reasonable for a spaceman to do, nor would most players do it. However, nobody would actually be involved in the theft except the person who did it. Security should respond, not admins. Yes, yes, this sounds like stealing the spare would be okay too. However, in the case of the spare it could be argued that in granting access to every area on the station, it involves every single person working or inhabiting those parts. Ditto with any Door Remote or Command Headset (outside the character's department), but not the NAD, Cap's Saber or the hand teleporter. Messing around with RP is also fine - there's nothing saying your character isn't slightly obnoxious and doesn't know when to leave. ERP is specifically protected under the rules here so I'm not going to breach the topic, but in most cases, slipping or stealing something off a person is an IC issue as well.

Extended rounds are not meant to be peaceful rounds - after all, they have increased event spawns - but instead are meant to be rounds where character interactions cause conflict, and even combat. The events are there to nudge that forward. Outside of outright sabotage or griefing, letting it play out (with all the grudges, meta or otherwise, forming) makes for an overall more interesting round. The more people there are, the more possibilities there are. Interfering with something that's not (seemingly) mean-spirited goes against my principles, and forcing secret on highpop turns interesting rounds into boring combat rounds.

It's a basic fact that people will complain when the letter of the law is not followed, be it to someone's benefit or to their hindrance. However, at the same time there are even some admins that haven't read the rules through and through. On the page currently pointed to by the server's rules button, it says that the CoC order of succession is a guideline, not an absolute (under the image of the CoC) - nevertheless during one round (Kate Walker got headbanned that round if you want to search it up), one of the admins in guise as a CC Agent absolutely told me that no, HoP is the absolute first in line to the Acting Captaincy and the heads have no say in it, except to depose after the promotion is done. Admins disagree on things all the time - I don't recall who was involved but someone got dronebanned for building a borg chassis (but not the whole thing) as drone, when in previous rounds they were informed by an admin that it was allowed. The letter of the law exists so that anyone can point at it and say "this is what it says, you may have forgotten." This is why precedent exists in the courts system - once one judge judges a sticky case and rules on it, the others can just say "oh, the other guy was set free after doing it, I should be too." Similarly, if an admin rules on something outside of the rules, it should be immediately added to the rulebook. So that the next time it happens nobody can whine.

Finally, to your 'the few are forcing a gamemode for the benefit of the many'. The most significant factor for why there are more ahelps during extended than secret is simple: people go into extended with a different mindset to secret. There's only one way to prevent that metaknowledge and that's to keep the results of the gamemode vote secret as well. Not temporarily secret until the round starts, then revealing it. I mean permanently secret - a 'veiled' gamemode that behaves identically to the one chosen in the vote, but is unknown to players. During extended, I'll complain to someone about someone doing bullshit. During secret, I'll save my breath and beat the crap out of them. This is an undeniable fact of knowing the gamemode, nobody is going to act the same between them, and it's the reason people occasionally ask 'what's the gamemode' in OOC. Because it matters. The only benefit the server really has from forcing extended is that admins don't have to hear "bwoink" as often.

All that having been said, I'd love to have a sample of the ahelps that come in during extended so we can discuss this topic further, but this will have to suffice.

Finally, an idea and a half for solving this in a clean and elegant fashion: Instead of the vote being an absolute with a declared winner and loser based on the number of votes, have it be RNG based, with the vote balance influencing which gamemode is more likely to be selected. 20% Secret, 80% Extended? Same odds for the gamemode. It'll get people whining, but as stated three paragraphs up, you can say "this is an objective and unbiased way to decide gamemode" and get it over with. As noted earlier, the results of the vote and the gamemode itself do not have to be published, to kill off the gamemode mentalities.

Anything is better than getting hand grease into the inner machinations of the server, and the playerbase's mob mentality in the process. And nothing is worse than an arbitrary decision (in this case, 40) dictating a policy.

[Trojan_Coyote]

Erping as a head ISN'T allowed on extended. Also, not quite sure where the whole 'extended has always been a majority' thing has been coming from lately, but thats something i've only seen since i came back from break. The first seven months or so I played it was always majority secret.