Citadel Community

BYOND Name: BigManClancy

Reason Banned: "As a non-antag, over-escalated a situation with the captain where another co-worker threw the captain into a wall, who responded with rubbershots. Clancy immediately starting going at the captain with a combat knife, stabbing him five times until the co-worker took over. Admitted to dragging the captain away from the door when he tried to escape and admitted to plotting to space the captain's items. If you think this ban is unfair, appeal it."

Admin who banned: Lordheichou

Length Banned:7 Days

Appeal Reason: The reason i am appealing is because i find the ban to be completely unreasonable and out of place.
Here is the context:
Earlier that round Rhey had taken an emitter from Engineering, which we had used to open a crate of Combat Knives that Rhey had ordered.
Later on after Plutonium has arrived as Captain, he came by to check Cargo and walked into the bay, to which we had closed the Storage shutter doors to hide the emitters from the Captain, a tiny goose chase happened which resulted in the Captain giving up and leaving.
They later returned to Cargo to interrogate us about what we were doing and why we were acting so damn suspicious, we made funny jokes about us being horny and doing lewd shit to which the Captain replied, and i quote: "Plutonium X rattles, "Also shut the fuck up you whores.""
https://i.imgur.com/XjJC2gm.jpg

This has resulted in Rhey aggro grabbing the Captain and chucking them against a wall, to which the Captain replied by pulling out their Rubbershot shotgun and pelting us all with Pellets (Mind you, this is a situation in which the Captain was 1vs3). We had proceeded to then of course defend ourselves by attacking them back, Rhey did so by disarming him and i did so by hitting him with one of the knives that we got from the crate earlier (I had assumed that knives would do 10 brute similarly to kitchen knifes, but according to Lordheichou in the ahelp later they apparently do 20 brute).
This goes on back and forth until the Captain finally collapses and tries to make their grand escape by crawling away, i had then ordered Isabelle (Who had the supply remote) to bolt the doors down so that we could cuff him and even called for a pair of cuffs twice. The Captain then got back up again, running circles around us to which i once again proceeded with hitting him with the knives until they collapsed, turns out that they instantly died from that though.
https://i.imgur.com/Uc6lkve.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cESlt1E.jpg

Rhey wanted to haul him off to cloning but i proceeded to say No to that, i wanted to undress the Captain and space their belongings (Not their PDA though) as a form of punishment to them and THEN haul them off to cloning, but while doing so the HOS interrupted me and tazed and cuffed me, me and Rhey then explained the situation to the HOS to which i was let go without a charge and the Captain was subsequently cloned.
Said Captain later arrived back to Cargo to apologize to us for his behavior (I, IC did not accept the apology but i accepted it OOC-wise)
https://i.imgur.com/mXz13Ty.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gdqaWDq.jpg

I was wrong however because i was subsequently bwoinked by Lordheichou for the situation, which ended up escalating into an argument in ahelps where my context was seemingly ignored and i was issued a 7 day ban which was based off my previous ban (Which was literally a self-requested ban)
The Ban in question: https://i.imgur.com/6TW3G9I.jpg
The Ban Appeal of said ban: http://citadel-station.net/forum/viewto ... 757a646c4b

Afterwards Lordheichou made the excuse that i then had a 3 day ban previously which would STILL add up to a 7 day ban, once again the context of the ban was ignored, it was a self-requested job ban which was previously only supposed to be left as a note
The Ban in question: https://i.imgur.com/bWtPHxN.jpg

Lordheichou then proceeded to make the excuse that "A ban is a ban" even though both these bans that i have self-requested were both a form of self-punishment and me wanting to show that i want to get better and improve my behavior and show that i am sorry for my behavior. But instead these things were now used to force a higher punishment rather than properly resolve a situation (Which was already resolved IC)
https://i.imgur.com/IU0riii.jpg

Even more insulting is the fact that i was told that both me and the Captain would be receiving a ban, but then was told afterwards that the Captain had not been banned whatsoever, despite the Captain being the one to escalate the entire situation by shooting us in the first place:
Heichou saying that both of us would receive a ban: https://i.imgur.com/uFObddd.jpg
Heichou then saying that they were not banned whatsoever:https://i.imgur.com/hNPCEfp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/t3aTywY.jpg

The main argument with this ban seems to be that i deliberately stopped the Captain from escaping, when in truth i did so because i wanted to cuff the Captain and possibly brig them for their bullshit as there was a HOS present that could deal with it.

I will fully admit that i got very, VERY emotional in the ahelps and in both Discord, borderline harassing Lordheichou over the situation, but i ultimately feel that i was treated misfairly by them, i have had the context deliberately ignored and had a ban forced on me based on self-requested ones that i had made to show that i wanted to better myself in the community, and i have already taken steps towards that: I no longer play headroles as much and actually enjoy the RP that i have in the lesser-involved roles such as Cargo Tech.
I have deliberately not made an unban appeal for my Silicon ban because yes, i agree that the ban was justified (Maybe not permanent, sure but i deserved it).
And just like now: I would like to request either a full unban, OR that in the minimum case that this ban is to be lowered down to a minimum of 2-3 days only as i can agree, i MAY have deserved a ban for it, but not at this sort of severe punishment as it was given to me.

[I have included the entire Chatlog of that round as an attachment in a .7z file)

Full Discord Chatlog with Lordheichou After the Ban (They can confirm that this is the entirety of it, i hope):
https://i.imgur.com/wnu2foL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KP9KLOt.jpg

When do people start realizing that self requesting a ban while they're on their last legs here in the community and then proceeding to not actually drop their aggressive tendencies means nothing and that we're still going to see said ban as what it would be if you didn't request a ban?

That said I'd be interested to hear (or really just go check if this isn't to be public) what Rhey/captain/anyone else in this got hit with, since while your history is honestly garbage and spacing his items in this case is pretty far out they did start it, but that also being said it didn't look like something you needed to lethally intervene in.

kevinz000 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:10 am

When do people start realizing that self requesting a ban while they're on their last legs here in the community and then proceeding to not actually drop their aggressive tendencies means nothing and that we're still going to see said ban as what it would be if you didn't request a ban?

Oh really? If it is seen as what it would be if i didn't request a ban, then why was the ban length directly affected by the self-requested ban?

kevinz000 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:12 am

but that also being said it didn't look like something you needed to lethally intervene in.

I never intervened in it mate, i was literally one of the people that was initially shot at, intervention would meant that i was uninvolved and entered the situation to "intervene". What i did was self-defense. And on top of that: How am i gonna non-lethally defend myself? With words? The only choice to defend myself is either running away and being a coward, or harm intenting them with the thing that would down them the quickest, which in this case was a combat knife.
Also i would like to mention again that i had an Epinephrine Pen on me that i wanted to give them as they were cuffed, but sadly Rhey and Isabelle just stood there while the guy was crawling on the floor rather than get me cuffs. The moment they were cuffed is the moment i would have instantly hit them with the Epi-Pen and CPR'd them as killing them was and never will be my first go-to (Unless they are an antag). They are a Captain (Albeit a stupid one) but that does not mean that i am allowed to kill them for the stupid mistake of fighting a 1v3 and expecting to actually come out on top

I 100% agree that stripping said Captain was out of line.

kevinz000 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:12 am

That said I'd be interested to hear (or really just go check if this isn't to be public) what Rhey/captain/anyone else in this got hit with, since while your history is honestly garbage and spacing his items in this case is pretty far out they did start it, but that also being said it didn't look like something you needed to lethally intervene in.

Me, as in Rhey, got hit with a note. The captain originally was supposed to be banned for a week aswell for starting the shitshow in the first place, or so they've mentioned in LOOC during the ahelp, as Clancy outlined but that didn't happen. I'm assuming they got noted but that assumption is just gut feeling and I have nothing backing that up.

What I personally dislike is that context is not being taken into account. All of us were equipped only with weapons that did not offer non-lethal solutions, so all we could really do is crit-heal (Lordheichou suggested just ahelping but I can't exactly stand still and do nothing while I'm being shotgunned and cook up a nice ahelp). Personally I would've dumped the crit body in the medbay lobby if medbay staff is around or broken in and placed the body in cryo and left after. Sadly the captain instantly succumbed when he reached hardcrit (At least that's what it seemed like to me at the time) and since I still had a load of stamina damage I couldn't really contest much for the body when Clancy took it away from me.
The captain later came back after being cloned, apologized, I apologized in return and I considered the issue over, ICly and OOCly.
Due to the fact that the Captain insulted and responded to being thrown 2 tiles for it by taking out a shotgun and spraying into the crowd, I consider him the aggressor in the scenario, Captain or not, and us as defending our department, but I don't care enough to contest the note.

Let me explain it all again: You heard all 3 sides of the story since you did note Rhey and i did hear in LOOC that you had talked to Plutonium.
1. The Captain insulted us.
2. Me and Rhey insulted him back and threatened him, which makes it very clear that me and Rhey are on the same side and that if escalated further it would be a CLEAR 2v1.
3. Rhey threw the Captain against the wall to which the Captain responded by GRABBING HIS SHOTGUN AND UNLOADING INTO A GROUP OF 3 PEOPLE WITH NO DISCRETION AS TO WHO HE HITS. This is Gun violence mind you, this went from a little throw that did 2 brute damage at most against a wall to the Captain unloading 6 rounds of pellets into us, each of which do 3 brute damage, therefore EASILY outdoing the damage done before.
4. We proceed to defend ourselves with our own weapons. Which admittedly show that we do a shitton more damage to the Captain in the situation, and yet the Captain continues to press on and fire at us rather than surrender his gun or escape.
5. The Captain eventually goes down, crawling on the floor away from me so that i would not be able to cuff them, meaning that i have absolutely 0 guarantee that they would be peaceful upon being epipenned and CPR'd.
6. And so they got up from the floor out of sheer luck back from crit and proceeded to run circles around me and Rhey, continue to flash us, which is once again a hostile action which we responded to by once again hitting them with our weapons.
7. Upon hitting the floor they immediatly died, leaving me to believe that they either succumbed instantly or were unlucky enough to just die on the spot.
8. I then go on to strip the Captain and want to space his belongings as a way of punishing them (Which is of course too far in this situation as it is very clear, but it was my way of exacting proper revenge as i feel that the death was a massive copout considering that THEY went and escalated on 2 people and actually were stupid enough to think they would come out on top)
9. They later return to Cargo, apologizing for their shit behavior, meaning that they accept that they were the one wrong in the situation. Therefore rendering the entire situation IC resolved and not requiring Admin intervention.
10. Yet you still went and bwoinked us for it, lied to my face that Plutonium would receive a ban and then continued to ignore the context of my actions and decide the context of my actions on your own terms. Meaning that you literally told, assigned me "WHY" i did these things instead of letting me tell you why i did them, and then upon me wanting to re-explain you the story you banned me mid-explanation to force the ahelp to be over:
https://i.imgur.com/qJrtq9M.jpg

You know. Since Admins seemingly are allowed to use their own interpretations of context and a situation, then let me give you my interpretation of why you banned me then.

Let us start off here with an ahelp that you had resolved the round prior which i was dirctly involved in. It was a round where i was ling and an Assistant who had killed me earlier decided to validhunt me down because of their "IC involvement with me as a ling".
Now you had given that person a note for their validhunting with the claim of "Warned for validhunting ling as an assistant. Explained that they were involved with lings death prior, to justify their validhunt."
Now here is the funny thing about this situation, in that ahelp you also ignored the context of the person to force a punishment and resolve the ahelp, which you yourself have even admitted to!
https://i.imgur.com/LnG8thV.jpg
And i am going to quote you here Heichou "Now that I've had a second to process the situation more clearly, (I was dealing with something IRL and wanted to be done with the ahelp)"
You, yourself have claimed that you rushed a punishment in order to be done with the ahelp, who is to say that you have not done the exact same thing with me as you might have still been dealing with that IRL situation while our ahelp was still going on.
But wait, that is only an assumption, an interpretation of what i think happened, but according to your judgement, reasoning and punishment that is seemingly allowed for a Staff Member to do.
You ignored my context, pleas and bargaining and saw me as the Antagonist in the entire situation when all i did was defend myself, you then stonewalled me in ahelps and continued to antagonize me which culminated in you banning me mid-explanation because you were sick of dealing with me, you rushed the ahelp to be over to force a conviction and be done with it.

Now, to tether off of this again let me say this: Every person in this situation had made mistakes or made mistakes prior, 2 of these were left with a note for their misbehavior, i was left with a 7 day Ban.

Rhey:
1. Ordered a Russian Surplus Crate and a Combat Knife Crate as a form of powergaming while it was blue alert (I never agreed with the ordering of these crates, i was only joking around saying that we should TOTALLY order them for the lulz)
Me actually inquiring as to why the knives are there: https://i.imgur.com/EqiXYV7.jpg
Said weapons and gear were later used in the situation so it makes sense to assume that Rhey had an impact on the situation by providing us this gear
2. Proceeded to powergame further by stealing an Emitter from Engineering to order the locked crates.
https://i.imgur.com/9BoICoS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xijXzTh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zbLXvkN.jpg
The CE later even passed by and saw an Emitter and was quite pissed off that we had it but decided to let it slide.
https://i.imgur.com/wfEtN25.jpg

Captain:
1. Went to antagonize me and Rhey by insulting us and calling us whores.
2. Proceeded to IMMEDIATLY jump to gun violence and unload on 2 people (that he KNEW were in the minimum friends and were going to back eachother up) after they were simply chucked against the wall for around 3 brute damage
3. Then tried escaping while in crit, in which they escaped both from me and the treatment i was going to give, they are at their own fault for dying.

Luna (Me):
1. Literally just retaliated to gun violence by harm intenting them with a knife as a form of self defense which ended in them dying due to their own stupidity.

Now then the Captain proceeds to be the one to ahelp the situation, which he clearly caused himself to escalate, i feel that the statement "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" applies here.
The thing is that the Captain even took the blame entirely and even apologized for the entire situation even going the way that it did, yet i was STILL punished a whole lot more severely than the other people. The disparage between 2 notes on people and a whopping 7 day ban reeks of pure antagonizing to me, even considering that you had lied to my fucking face about applying a ban to the Captain.
You not only broke the trust of one of your players, you also did not listen to their context, their reasoning, their explanations of the bans that you were basing the length off of and then just pulled a silent ban while i was mid-explanation to force the ticket to come to a resolved state and force me off the server for it.

I was the one who helped out heichou in trying to work out some details in the situation in admin chat during the situation.
It seems you're glazing over the real issue that went into your ban and fussing over all of the insignificant details. It doesn't matter to you what punishments anyone else got. It doesn't matter to you that he was going to ban someone else, but later decided against it.

What does matter is the patterns of over-escalation that we are starting to see happen more and more often. The captain insulting you is one thing. Rhey showing some aggression and throwing him at the wall makes sense. The captain being threatened, surrounded by three cargo techs with an emitter, opened combat knives crate, and by the looks of your screenshot armor, is enough reason to use some crowd control rubbershot if he believed his life was in danger. (Think about if his life was in danger for a second.)

We can sometimes turn a blind eye to cargo abusing emitters to open weapons and armor crates, but when it turns into violence at the first opportunity, there's obviously some issue. I was told that you played the significant majority role in attacking the captain with your combat knife. Given your involvement as you say so far, I see it as you simply got caught in the crossfire of someone else's escalation. Why you didn't run or try to de-escalate, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why you believed it to be right to not only put him into crit, but to keep him from escaping until his death, and then to attempt to even further escalate by trying to discard nearly all of his equipment for the round.

I agreed with the banning admin's suggestion of a ban at the time for this reason. To me, it's reinforced by what I had seen just the day earlier as well, regarding your involvement as a medical doctor of removing all the limbs off of a dying person and leaving them for dead because you believed that they had wronged you over something vastly insignificant. It's your extreme over-escalation and belief that you are in the right to completely shut down other player's rounds as some sort of self-righteous punishment for reasons far, far not equal, that I believe this ban should stay. You very much need to address these issues and tone them down when you return to play.

Izzy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:03 pm

We can sometimes turn a blind eye to cargo abusing emitters to open weapons and armor crates, but when it turns into violence at the first opportunity, there's obviously some issue.

I am not the one who started being violent, i defended myself.

Izzy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:03 pm

Given your involvement as you say so far, I see it as you simply got caught in the crossfire of someone else's escalation. Why you didn't run or try to de-escalate, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why you believed it to be right to not only put him into crit, but to keep him from escaping until his death, and then to attempt to even further escalate by trying to discard nearly all of his equipment for the round.

It's like you never actually bothered to properly read my text, this is what i mean by saying that the Staff seems to ignore context and make up their own definition of what people did for what reason.

I never got caught in the crossfire, I WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED. I have mad it VERY VERY clear that i was on Rhey's side by showing verbal hostility towards the Captain when he insulted us and yet he still fired on Rhey, he should know better.
And yes, how many times do i have to agree with the point that stripping the Captain was overkill, at the end they were not stripped whatsoever and their equipment was returned to them after cloning.

Izzy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:03 pm

To me, it's reinforced by what I had seen just the day earlier as well, regarding your involvement as a medical doctor of removing all the limbs off of a dying person and leaving them for dead because you believed that they had wronged you over something vastly insignificant. It's your extreme over-escalation and belief that you are in the right to completely shut down other player's rounds as some sort of self-righteous punishment for reasons far, far not equal, that I believe this ban should stay. You very much need to address these issues and tone them down when you return to play.

I have only shut down rounds for 2 people ever in all my time on Citadel.
1 time was when i clearly metagrudged against Esela Mindles and stripped and demoted them, which i had received a punishment for and even agreed on having a ban.
The second time was that nuggeting incident, and i have made it VERY clear and given several warnings to the person that i was nugetting that i would fucking do it if they were to keep trying to escape, once again just like in that ahelp you have ignored context that i have given to you and choose to not show the entire story of what happened and give your own interpretation of what my reasons and were rather than actually acknowledge my side of the story WHATSOEVER

Izzy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:03 pm

You very much need to address these issues and tone them down when you return to play.

Alright, since it is very clear that i am not allowed to defend myself when fired upon and it counts as "overescalation" when i am only defending myself i might just go ahead and make Luna into a pacifist character then. It is shown repeatedly from Staff members that any sort of hostile retaliation towards somebody from me is clearly not wanted and that you guys obviously want me to always type *surrender and keel over at the first sight of trouble.

If you so want me to tone down my overescalation then, how about i make a vow to have ALL my characters have a Pacifist quirk from now on since you people seem SO adamant on not letting me defend myself or enact any sort of retaliation for being verbally abused, shoved, punched and shot.

I, for one literally said, i have done a mistake in this situation by hardcritting them, but it is in the end the Captain's fault for refusing treatment and refusing to be cuffed that they died, it is THEIR fault, not mine. All i did was fucking defend myself.

As an afternote: From this point i will be recording every round of SS13 that i play on Citadel, as it is very clear Staff Members here cannot be trusted to actually listen to the context given by their players and choose their own interpretations of the situation to be the truth.

After further consideration on this topic and some more discussion with Clancy is discord DMs, I've decided to decrease the ban length from 7 days to 4 days. Moving the topic to accepted now.