Cw3040's Ban appeal

[cw3040]

BYOND Name: Cw3040

Reason Banned: "Attempted to lure a crew member into a trap set up by an antag, during a secret round and as a non-antag themselves, simply due to wanting their Hardsuit back. Numerous notes, warnings and bans of other severe behaviour demand a non-lenient ban duration. Sort yourself out."

Admin who banned: Worgilisk (but the big player was Trojan_Coyote)

Length Banned: 1 month

Appeal Reason: This was an IC scenario, for perfectly valid IC reasoning (not only did I know Ty was an antag because he basically told me and therefore I was at risk of dying, but the HoS stole my things that I earned by going to space). And, on top of that, I've never helped an antag as non-antag before now.



Rule 5 of Antag Policy states: Crew cooperating with an antagonist is only allowable if: there's a credible in-character reasons (e.g., a physical altercation with a traitor's target, feeding clones to a changeling so that it doesn't murder you, mutual greater threat).

[Nik707]

I am the antag who did this. All CW did was lure the target into maint, with the IC reasons being A) their items were confiscated, and B) I could have very easily killed them. In fact, they were also a target and I was planning to kill both of them in the same situation. This failed. Sarah took the brigging, didn't do anything antagonistic besides a lure into a tunnel, and had 2 IC reasons why, one of which is partially given as an example in rule 5 of the antagonist policy. " feeding clones to a changeling so that it doesn't murder you,"
Absolutely the most hamfisted ban I've ever seen. Cw might have a good few notes, but a month ban for something that wouldn't even be looked at twice if an admin wasn't the target is actually insane, especially with someone who's actively contributing to Citadel.

[Nyny]

I feel this is ok because if this was the case. Let me do an overview.


Rule 08: No self-antagging.

Self-antagging is performing the actions of, or acting as if you are, an antagonist when your role is not set as such.

1. Murder, attempted murder, mutiny, rioting, theft of a restricted weapon, breaking and entering, sabotage, and grand theft are all considered to be self-antagging.
2. Pretending to be an antagonist when you aren't one is (obviously) considered self-antagging.
3. Using in-game means to repetatively make yourself an antagonist (e.g. wishgranter, slime potions, etc) is considered self-antagging.

• Self-antagging will mostly be left to in-character solutions such as security or heads of staff. This rule is a protection against bad players who take it upon themselves to ruin rounds and make the lives of players and admins alike more difficult.
• The "toeing-the-line" caveat is doubly applicable to this rule.

From what it seems, a few things comes into my mind.

Has the user broken Rule 8 and if not, why is it?:

CW has In Character reason to work with the antagonist. The character in this situation has felt rather agitated by how security took his hard suit so in return he lured a security crewmember into a trap to aid the antagonist because well, pay back. Another instance where he broke into the suit storage and jettison security's suits. To me, I don't see why this would be self antagging.

What I gotta say is that this was not self antagging. This reason and another for a likely hood of miscommunication that may have occurred during this placement. Another note I wish to add the escalation was likely a bit much. Not sure how it really impacted the round for the behaviour CW's character exhibited.

Maybe this ban can change but no guaranteed call how this will turn out for you.

(sorry for the weird edits)

[kevinz000]

luring the hos into a changeling deathtrap because they took their powergamed space loot that is technically against space law is not okay. i'd call that overretaliation. you don't try to get security killed for confiscating a syndicate hardsuit from space, even if you found it with the way you powergame space ruins on a regular basis.
however, a 1 month ban is extreme. yes, they lured the hos into a ling trap for no good reason, but i feel like a one month ban is too much. while they have recent notes on over escalation as well as validhunting/powergaming, they haven't done it nearly enough for me to be comfortable with monthbanning them over this.
edit: no specific notes about powergaming? yeah the only one was me telling them to not use it just to validhunt every round. while it's bad it isn't justifying a one month ban in my opinion.

[ZeroNetAlpha]

One month is excessive for this incident. 7 Days is more appropriate given the severity of the incident.

[Fractious]

Alright, here's my reply and what I think of the situation.

First, I think that Citadel should allow players to RP with antags under certain circumstances, yes, you should be able to obey to an antag if your life is in danger.

Secondly, I do think you did this out of grudge due to the HoS taking your space loot, which was kinda dickish, remove this out of the way and I would actually be in favor of a ban removal.

Now, I do think one month for such thing, while we call ourself an M-RP server is pretty harsh and should be reduced to one week.
Best of luck,

[Trojan_Coyote]

While I'm involved, I don't think it was month worthy. Week, week and a half maybe.

[Worgilisk]

Right. First off;
The primary reason I chose for a month-long duration for the ban was for how you had already received a ban for that same duration some time back - which wasn't lifted or changed in duration. I opted not to make it longer on account of it being so long since then without bans, but perhaps it was still too strict regardless for the ban reason listed.
*However.*
After getting word of another matter during that same round after the ban was made, and now that I've done some digging in regards to that, I have to ask: As a non-antag Atmos Tech, what were you doing in the Armoury on *at least* two different occasions? There's at least three instances of you throwing Security Hardsuits - potentially into space from what I can tell from the listed co-ordinates, and then later into the round firing lasers from the armoury.

[cw3040]

The security hardsuits are not in the armory on Pubby Station, but in the Security Equipment room. The "firing lasers from the armory" was after the round had ended.

EDIT: Regarding the fact that I received a one-month ban, it was not only a year and three months ago, but also for a reason unrelated to the current ban. If we want to talk over-escalation bans, my first and ONLY overescalation ban was given by Subtumaka one year and four months ago, and was reduced from a 3-day to a 2-day.

[Worgilisk]

Unfortunately, that fails to explain *why* you had Security Hardsuits on-hand in the first place.
Also, EoRG happens after the shuttle is docked and the antags are revealed, which in this round happened at 17:53:43.358
You firing lasers in the Armoury was logged at 17:53:09.477 - at least 30 seconds before that time.